Author Topic: Why there's so many versions of Manjaro?  (Read 2496 times)

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Offline nadir

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Why there's so many versions of Manjaro?
« on: 09. May 2016, 17:00:55 »
Hi all,
I like to speak frankly & strait (so please don't think  I am a rude person).

I was very disappointed by the Manjaro Cinnamon (it is unstable, on a daily usage you can't just work without being forced to restart it as it get "slow" over time. They even provide a shortcut to restart the desktop as a sign of weakness. Fact: With my previous Win8 laptop I never had to restart because of the desktop ). Disappointed because I was impressed at first: So easy to start with, so close to a windows desktop usage (same shortcuts etc). And Nemo is just very Good. I thought I found my ultimate desktop.
I went to Manjaro for Manjaro OpenRC. But XFCE ended up to be disapointing after several months of use. Especially Thunar.
Sadly, I decided to leave the OpenRC branch.

Then to replace my Manjaro, I tried Antergos in a Usb drive. And Ubuntu 16. And Mint LMDE. I was about to install Antergos before I tried again the Manjaro Mate liveCD. It won me.
I found it close to what I needed, and marco is blazing fast.
So I decided to stay with Manjaro, I then installed Mate packages. It took me several hours to make it look like the manjaro Mate (from the Cinnamon install), which IMHO looks very good (I hate the default Mate style & colors). Generally speaking I like the greeny Manjaro themes.

My point:
I think that the idea of Antergos to provide a "choose your desktop" wizard during the installation is superior.

Especially for the beginners. They feel confused about the hundred of versions of Manjaro, they don't see the difference.
In fact, there should'nt. There isn't.
Even more, I think it is starting to be ridiculous.

I really think it shoud be possible with Manjaro to switch between any desktop environment without reinstalling and keeping the Manjaro themes as if it were installed with the flavoured Manjaro ISO.
You will say it is possible. But devil is in the details: themes, DM, xinitrc... I needed to diffs the installed packages, .config, themes...
several hours lost.

then I tought: why?
is the desktop really a differentiator for an Arch based distro?

My answser is No
.
the real differentiators are:
  • the init system: systemd(I hate it) or init or openRC(my prefered)
  • directly connected to arch repos (antergos) or "buffered" (Manjaro)
Then it is just a matter of themes, and default installed packages.
I don't even understand why there exist Caja AND Nemo. Why double effort for the same (good) tool? Why Thunar and others? Why?
Even during install, why several installers? A Manjaro newbie will have no clue.
Why octopi? pamac is so damn simple & good!

I needed to write this post just to give my feedback about Manjaro, before I leave for Mint LMDE (SysV init based) if Manjaro Mate does not work for me.

For the records:
  • As a developer, I need a stable desktop, because I need to launch a lot of tools, like phpstorm, docker, type passwords etc, before being in a position to start working. Having to do it each time I open my laptop would be a nightmare
  • Loosing my session after a suspend (like I have with kernel 4.5) is killing me. It happened with Manjaro. Never with windows. Never with Ubuntu.
  • I wanted to escape from the spying hell of Windows, and the systemd hell too
  • Debian is lost, Debian 8 was a total failure, I need an alternative to systemd (openRC is the best candidate IMHO)

I think there should be only 3 versions of Manjaro:
  • Standard (with a desktop choice wizard like Antergos, Systemd, only 1 installer)
  • openRC edition
  • net edition

currently, the Manjaro of my dreams? OpenRC + Mate  with the proper kernel that make it stable (I mean hundred days of suspend/resume usage without reboot)
+ a perfect integration in Caja/nemo for the developer tools + details like Archive manager that works as well as ubuntu, out of the box support for the Iphone...

Proper kernel: in example, for me (in a recent laptop) it is the 4.2 or 4.6 but not 4.4 (it make my 4K display go "blank" every 2 minutes for 2-3 seconds) nor 4.5 (suspend/resume do not work). Weird.


Last word:  Hail to the Manjaro teams! you did an amazing work with this distro overall.




« Last Edit: 09. May 2016, 17:10:55 by nadir »

Offline lojze

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Re: Why there's so many versions of Manjaro?
« Reply #1 on: 09. May 2016, 17:06:19 »
There's some good reasoning in your post.

Offline jonathon

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Re: Why there's so many versions of Manjaro?
« Reply #2 on: 09. May 2016, 18:57:23 »
Why there's so many versions of Manjaro?

There are two versions of Manjaro: Xfce and KDE.

(well, three if you count the minimal NET installer).

Any other "versions" are community editions. They are not official and have varying goals. Some go for minimal vanilla, some for highly customised versions of a DE. OpenRC community editions are still highly experimental.
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Offline c00ter

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Re: Why there's so many versions of Manjaro?
« Reply #3 on: 09. May 2016, 19:09:12 »
There are two versions of Manjaro: Xfce and KDE.

(well, three if you count the minimal NET installer).

Any other "versions" are community editions. They are not official and have varying goals. Some go for minimal vanilla, some for highly customised versions of a DE. OpenRC community editions are still highly experimental.

Exactly! And it needs to be stressed that DEs such as Deepin & Budgie are "undergoing rapid development" and what that entails, so that users can make an informed decision when taking on one of these DE-types. Same with WMs.

Regards

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Offline nadir

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Re: Why there's so many versions of Manjaro?
« Reply #4 on: 09. May 2016, 19:29:15 »
There are two versions of Manjaro: Xfce and KDE.

Ok, but it is a bit confusing even on  the download page: http://manjaro.github.io/download/: Here It's just like there are 6 versions.
Next, people would not see the difference between "community" or "official": in the end they are all community in reality, since Manjaro is not a company AFAK.
So maybe the only difference is in your head.


I have a question:
once installed, it is easy to switch to the other desktop (xfce->kde) including the themes and so on?
Is it possible to have both DE at the same time and go back & forth at login time?

about openRC:
It is a pity that Manjaro openRC is considered as "experimental". I used it 5 months and it was very good, I left it because of several XFCE annoyances (like the awful Thunar). Also because backuping my iphone's photos was a nightmare-I posted a question about it, I still don't see why it works only on the systemd flavors.
I think that the openRC version could drive a lot of disappointed ubuntu users & systemd haters toward Manjaro.
That's exactly what I was looking for (a systemd alternative) when I moved to Manjaro (I was fedup with Ubuntu & Windows).
That's why I am looking at LMDE right now: https://www.linuxmint.com/download_lmde.php (But OpenRC is far better than Init IMHO).
At that time (a year ago) the Antergos install did not even boot up on my brand new laptop. Now Antergos is far better.

Thanks
« Last Edit: 09. May 2016, 19:39:44 by nadir »

Offline nadir

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Re: Why there's so many versions of Manjaro?
« Reply #5 on: 09. May 2016, 19:40:58 »

Offline torvic9

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Re: Why there's so many versions of Manjaro?
« Reply #6 on: 09. May 2016, 19:41:36 »
My point:
I think that the idea of Antergos to provide a "choose your desktop" wizard during the installation is superior.
Cool idea, but not really necessary. As others pointed out, there are only three different official Manjaros.
Especially for the beginners. They feel confused about the hundred of versions of Manjaro, they don't see the difference.
In fact, there should'nt. There isn't.
Beginners ought to stick with the official Manjaro releases.
I really think it shoud be possible with Manjaro to switch between any desktop environment without reinstalling and keeping the Manjaro themes as if it were installed with the flavoured Manjaro ISO.
You will say it is possible. But devil is in the details: themes, DM, xinitrc... I needed to diffs the installed packages, .config, themes...
several hours lost.
I agree that it is not easy to switch the DE with all the bells and whistles. I started with an xfce install, but now run i3. It was not that difficult after all, thanks to oberon's help.
I don't even understand why there exist Caja AND Nemo. Why double effort for the same (good) tool? Why Thunar and others? Why?
That's not really the fault of Manjaro.
Even during install, why several installers? A Manjaro newbie will have no clue.
I agree! One GUI installer plus the command line installer is enough imho. Calamares doesn't yet have release quality iirc.
Why octopi? pamac is so damn simple & good!
I agree.
  • Loosing my session after a suspend (like I have with kernel 4.5) is killing me. It happened with Manjaro. Never with windows. Never with Ubuntu.
  • Debian is lost, Debian 8 was a total failure, I need an alternative to systemd (openRC is the best candidate IMHO)
To be honest, that sounds like whinging and complaining. Use Ubuntu if you want "stable". Also, use LTS kernel if you want a bit more stability.
I think there should be only 3 versions of Manjaro:
  • Standard (with a desktop choice wizard like Antergos, Systemd, only 1 installer)
  • openRC edition
  • net edition
There are already 3 different Manjaro ISOs.
currently, the Manjaro of my dreams? OpenRC + Mate  with the proper kernel that make it stable (I mean hundred days of
Everyone has dreams, but they are all different. I hate Mate, I don't like OpenRC. So what now? :)
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Offline torvic9

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Re: Why there's so many versions of Manjaro?
« Reply #7 on: 09. May 2016, 19:44:40 »
about openRC:
It is a pity that Manjaro openRC is considered as "experimental". I used it 5 months and it was very good, I left it because of several XFCE annoyances (like the awful Thunar). Also because backuping my iphone's photos was a nightmare-I posted a question about it, I still don't see why it works only on the systemd flavors.
I think that the openRC version could drive a lot of disappointed ubuntu users & systemd haters toward Manjaro.
That's exactly what I was looking for (a systemd alternative) when I moved to Manjaro (I was fedup with Ubuntu & Windows).
That's why I am looking at LMDE right now: https://www.linuxmint.com/download_lmde.php (But OpenRC is far better than Init IMHO).
At that time (a year ago) the Antergos install did not even boot up on my brand new laptop. Now Antergos is far better.

Thanks

I hated systemd at the beginning, but now I'm starting to love it. It's a bit cumbersome but once you get used to it, it works pretty well. I never tried openRC as I'm very happy with systemd. Best would be good old sysvinit, but times change - people don't.
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Offline nadir

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Re: Why there's so many versions of Manjaro?
« Reply #8 on: 09. May 2016, 19:51:54 »
I hated systemd at the beginning, but now I'm starting to love it. It's a bit cumbersome but once you get used to it, it works pretty well. I never tried openRC as I'm very happy with systemd. Best would be good old sysvinit, but times change - people don't.

As a software developer, I still hate systemd. But I use it because I am forced to use it. As a Linux user I hate being forced to use smthing.

For the records:
I found that with OpenRC Parallel Init Enabled (which is off by default) you get a very fast boot, IMHO it is as fast as a systemd boot (plus I would say it make no sense to argue about a 0.5 sec difference).

You can get it by adding this line to the file /etc/rc.conf
rc_parallel="YES"

source: https://github.com/throwawaygh/arch-openrc-guide

Offline Kleyno

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Re: Why there's so many versions of Manjaro?
« Reply #9 on: 09. May 2016, 19:53:40 »
Ok, but it is a bit confusing even on  the download page: http://manjaro.github.io/download/: Here It's just like there are 6 versions.
Next, people would not see the difference between "community" or "official": in the end they are all community in reality, since Manjaro is not a company AFAK.
So maybe the only difference is in your head.

The 6 versions you mention are just three versions. XFCE, KDE, Net. Each version with a 32bit and 64bit ISO.

If you're saying someone is going to get confused about the difference between a 32bit and 64bit ISO, then maybe they should do some more reading before trying to download and install Manjaro.

Oh, and since you brought up Mint, their download page doesn't meet your criteria for not-confusing either: https://linuxmint.com/download.php
« Last Edit: 09. May 2016, 19:58:02 by Kleyno »
Disclaimer, I am an Linux noob. Any advice I give should be taken in light of such.

Offline philm

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Re: Why there's so many versions of Manjaro?
« Reply #10 on: 09. May 2016, 19:58:08 »
You can download manjaro-tools and do a build of the favorite edition you like given by the profiles. XFCE can be built with systemd or openrc, such does the KDE version. Gnome on the other hand will be more tricky to get running with OpenRC. So only XFCE and KDE profiles are officially supported by use, the core-development team. All others are maintained by users. We are currently considering also to release OpenRC based ISOs for XFCE and KDE.

Offline philm

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Re: Why there's so many versions of Manjaro?
« Reply #11 on: 09. May 2016, 20:01:23 »
Starting with the release 16.06 we have now settings packages. They include skel folders with default theme settings. So you can install the settings and all needed packages to get the same look as you would by installing a precompiled ISO using this DE. We will see how we handle the community editions so people know that they might not can expect the same quality as from the KDE and XFCE editions.

Offline withjaro

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Re: Why there's so many versions of Manjaro?
« Reply #12 on: 09. May 2016, 20:03:49 »
Everyone has dreams, but they are all different. I hate Mate, I don't like OpenRC. So what now? :)
:) ... have you ever considered a career in 'real' diplomacy.torvic9 ;)

Systemd has the backing of 'paid' developers and intends to make porting to all platforms seamless ....
Manjaro's OpenRC essentially comes down to .... Artoo (and a few others) ... their efforts are super-human!
Im studying ... and on top of init options ... Gentoo itself has development deviances ...

How different distros are presented ... is subjective ... for developers AND users.
As Philm points out ... a rabbit producing hat is available ... for all tastes :)

If you like something ... learn ... use ... and then contribute ... because thats how it gets better :)
(if only i could stick a rocket on my development curve  :-[  )
< insert your own inspiring quotation - and smile :) >

Offline philm

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Re: Why there's so many versions of Manjaro?
« Reply #13 on: 09. May 2016, 20:04:14 »
I might create a new video which I will explain on how to build your own Manjaro-Spin, using the wanted kernel and DE for it real easy. Only thing what you have to do is to install one of our given editions to get a base for building it. We will see when I find time for doing that. I might base it on NET-install live-cd and a harddrive mounted. So even installing Manjaro is not necessary.
« Last Edit: 09. May 2016, 20:06:37 by philm »

Offline torvic9

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Re: Why there's so many versions of Manjaro?
« Reply #14 on: 09. May 2016, 20:08:06 »
:) ... have you ever considered a career in 'real' diplomacy.torvic9 ;)
I actually did, until I found out that being politically incorrect doesn't help with it:)

As a software developer, I still hate systemd. But I use it because I am forced to use it. As a Linux user I hate being forced to use smthing.
It's perfectly OK to hate systemd. Do note though that there are other people - not necessarily developers - who like systemd. And many many more people who don't even know what systemd is. And you're not forced to use it.

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