Author Topic: Roll back feature, an automatic downgrade option?  (Read 3490 times)

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Offline viking

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Re: Roll back feature, an automatic downgrade option?
« Reply #15 on: 25. April 2016, 12:42:29 »
Don't understand that at all artoo. If you type 'downgrade' plus a package name into your terminal you will get a choice of anything up to a dozen packages to select from. These are remote packages, not locally cached ones. The difference between downgrade and rollback is simply a matter of quantity - ie downgrading multiple packages at the same time instead of singly. So I question your statement that rollback is not possible.

Having said that I use Unstable so maybe it is different in Stable??

And for the benefit of the OP the ultimate in rollback is disk imaging, a technique I use frequently and can't recommend highly enough. I personally use fsarchiver but clonezilla is also available.
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Offline handy

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Re: Roll back feature, an automatic downgrade option?
« Reply #16 on: 25. April 2016, 12:45:18 »
I'll add a link to the Arch Linux Archive wiki page, to our Downgrade page in the Manjaro wiki. As it certainly may be the right choice under certain circumstances.
« Last Edit: 25. April 2016, 12:47:05 by handy »
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Offline handy

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Re: Roll back feature, an automatic downgrade option?
« Reply #17 on: 25. April 2016, 12:58:16 »
I guess the question that this thread is bringing up is, "I wish that there was an easier way roll back the system than those that currently exist?"

Has anyone mentioned BTRFS & ZFS ? These file systems have the ability to be set-up to keep backups (snapshots) of your system that you can restore. Configuring them to do so isn't a simple process though. You need to do some study & most likely test it out some before you commit your data & all to it.
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manipulation of consciousness, through which reality
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Offline withjaro

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Re: Roll back feature, an automatic downgrade option?
« Reply #18 on: 25. April 2016, 13:09:19 »
Yes,although it may seem a simple request ... as explained,it can be the thin end of a very wide wedge,

I can think of a distribution that specialises in rollback,upgrade/downgrade options,but that itself is in experimental stage and quite newbie-unfriendly ... and emigration to this solution,would require considerable changes in Manjaro's architecture.
Not saying it cant be done,or other similar solutions exist ... but it not as simple as it sounds,and then .. theres the maintenance.

Id consider it an 'AUR' feature,for those who wish to investigate ... as a default? ... i think its a complexity that would alienate some new users.
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Offline mandog

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Re: Roll back feature, an automatic downgrade option?
« Reply #19 on: 25. April 2016, 15:34:19 »
Mandog, I like how you start your post by writing "So get this right" and then get everything wrong. Nice troll attempt.

Badbodh, excellent point, forgot about the dependency thing.

Thanks to all of you for your input.
I'm sorry if you don't like my style The fact is I have forgotten more than you probably will ever know about the Arch way, that is not a insult to you in any way but old age gets us all,  :-[ no i'm not a troll and get offended by your inaccurate assumption     

You can use a advanced file system with snapshots,
 or do a backup image, but that defeats a rolling release? :-\ as it will still break when you try to upgrade,
 
use  CentOS/RedHat, with a long release cycle, but that is not how Arch works every app has shared dependencies a lot of work goes into making sure that the software system works together, with a rolling release and bleeding edge you the user made a choice for the latest greatest verses stable yes its the users choice nobody forced you. :'(

The last option and its the best option if you want to play with big boys distros is to learn the Arch/gentoo ways that means learn how to fix it Archers/Gentoo users don't reinstall they fix it and the "Wiki Blatently states Arch does not break things you do" >:D
Don't take offence that is how it is and will not change and certainly aimed directly at you :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
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Offline badbodh

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Re: Roll back feature, an automatic downgrade option?
« Reply #20 on: 25. April 2016, 16:39:04 »
@mandog : one sentence - Please don't baby-proof Manjaro  :P :P :P
You can't feel the love till it hurts a little. Go rolling, go bleeding-edge !

Offline c00ter

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Re: Roll back feature, an automatic downgrade option?
« Reply #21 on: 25. April 2016, 17:13:31 »
Mandog, I like how you start your post by writing "So get this right" and then get everything wrong. Nice troll attempt...

@mandog is not a troll and is not making a troll post. He just an old f@#$er like me and the morning aches probably haven't worn off yet. In truth, he probably said what a few of us thought, but did not put in words. He is that way, he will not mince words. A lot of run ons but a blessed lack of over-commatization, can make his posts a bit difficult to interpret sometimes. What I know of mandog, based on interactions with him for several years here and elsewhere, is that he will help anyone with anything. And will doggedly stick with it until it is done. He has also earned the right to brag a little, having run Arch since before it was a gleam in Phil & Roland's eyes.  >:D

OP, this was an opinion post, as far as I can tell. You got @mandog's. Mine fairly reflects his: You chose an Arch-based rolling/nose-bleed distro. The Arch Way is to fix the problem, not hold it in abeyance. To quote the immortal words of astronaut and first American in space, Alan Shepard from the movie The Right Stuff: "Why don't you fix your little problems and light this candle?(!)"  >:D

Regards

EDIT: I should add, that IMHO having the ability--and acquiring the knowledge--to repair a singular problem by rolling back a package or a problem-causing package group, is a very useful feature. And it is not unique to Arch or Manjaro. I've only ever needed to roll back two updates of a single package in many years; once a kernel and once network manager. The kernel was in Arch/Manjaro, and network manager in Debian Testing. Both times the process was simple and without incident. They both, however, required that I obtain the knowledge to do so. And that, my friends, is not a bad thing to learn when you insist on the freedom that Linux has to offer.
« Last Edit: 25. April 2016, 17:25:36 by c00ter »
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Offline eugen-b

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Re: Roll back feature, an automatic downgrade option?
« Reply #22 on: 25. April 2016, 17:36:32 »
No, not a troll post definitely. It looks to me like he read my post and elaborated it a bit, that snapshots are not a long term solution on a rolling distro.
However I relly prefer to repair a system from graphical environment and that's where a snapshot brings me.
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Offline mandog

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Re: Roll back feature, an automatic downgrade option?
« Reply #23 on: 25. April 2016, 17:38:04 »
@mandog : one sentence - Please don't baby-proof Manjaro  :P :P :P

Parden Can you please explain the Manjaro part in the baby-proof
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Offline eugen-b

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Re: Roll back feature, an automatic downgrade option?
« Reply #24 on: 25. April 2016, 17:59:33 »
Parden Can you please explain the Manjaro part in the baby-proof
He probably means that Manjaro is for Linux learners, too. Making mistakes is ok when it is part of the learning process.
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Offline mandog

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Re: Roll back feature, an automatic downgrade option?
« Reply #25 on: 25. April 2016, 18:16:30 »
Totally correct but is not explained to new users that Arch does not need to be tamed , Manjaro making it easier does not mean you don't need to learn or put anything back, it it basically means Manjaro has a installer and a few tools to help you in the beggining.
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Offline fassil

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Re: Roll back feature, an automatic downgrade option?
« Reply #26 on: 25. April 2016, 19:22:06 »
Yep, but learn needs such a time that sometime you don't have & also a working Os..!
& an option like this could be a way to prepare to move ahead/put off the inevitable & search after more quietly for the culprit package, in example.
"Are you enlightened ?"

Offline Strandvaskeren

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Re: Roll back feature, an automatic downgrade option?
« Reply #27 on: 26. April 2016, 09:01:47 »
Okay, seems I need to explain my troll statement.

First Mandog wrote "you decide to use a bleeding edge rolling release that you have not got a clue how to manage".

I might not be as wise in the Manjaro ways as everyone else, but I have actually already managed to keep Manjaro running on my system for a couple of years, so even though my clue might not be as big as someone elses clue, I do have a clue how to manage stuff.

Mandog then continued "you want someone to make a app to roll it back".

Where exactly did I ask for that? All I asked was if such a feature were already available. I didn't ask for anyone to do anything.

At one point I used to weed out the packages in /var/cache/pacman/pkg manually and one day I heard someone mention paccache -rvk3 that did it all in one swift move - awesome. Similarly there might already be a function to save me from doing a roll back by manually using yaourt -U on a bunch of packages. I didn't ask for anyone to invent such a function, I just asked if such a function already exists.

Then we get to Mandogs "when you f###k it up because you don't know".

It makes me wonder how Mandog does his upgrading? Does he know everything about every package before doing an upgrade or will he do like the rest of us: do the upgrade hoping that everything works, fingers crossed, and afterwards deal with issues if that wasn't the case? I really can't see how me upgrading my system constitutes me f####king it up? I might f###k it up by trying to roll back packages or otherwise trying to solve issues, that would be all on me, but just doing a regular upgrade? Really?

We cap it off with Mandogs "and don't want to learn how to fix it".

Again, where exactly did I say that? All I stated was, that some times I don't have the time to dig into stuff.

Rather than reading what I actually wrote, Mandog did a bunch of assumptions on my behalf - incorrect assumptions I might add. It's not in my nature to assume that people are dimwits so instead I assumed that he deliberately misread me to get a reaction - in other words tried to troll me.

TL:DR Stop assuming stuff about me and my motives and I'll stop calling you a troll..  ;)

Offline handy

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Re: Roll back feature, an automatic downgrade option?
« Reply #28 on: 26. April 2016, 10:10:29 »
Some people make assumptions that are incorrect re. an extremely valid use (my use so its valid to me!) of a snapshot or a Clonezilla type of image of the Manjaro system "/" partition. That being such methods allow you to very quickly & painlessly get back to a working Manjaro (or whatever OS) system, from where you can work to inform yourself about what is broken, & in the case of Manjaro, block such files from being upgraded until the "bug" is fixed. Or until you have made the relevant changes to your system to enable a normal system upgrade.
The ultimate tyranny in a society is not control
by martial law. It is control by the psychological
manipulation of consciousness, through which reality
is defined so that those who exist within do not even
realize that they are in prison.
  —  Barbara Marciniak

Offline Strandvaskeren

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Re: Roll back feature, an automatic downgrade option?
« Reply #29 on: 27. April 2016, 15:35:56 »
Hmm..

Couldn't I just use dd for that?

Boot from a live cd (or dual boot into a small, second linux os besides my manjaro) and then use dd to make an image of my manjaro root into a file.

Boot into Manjaro, do the upgrade and if everything looks fine, I'll delete the image file.

If stuff is messed up, I can either dig into which package messed things up or boot the live cd/second linux os once more and restore my manjaro root from the image file - allowing me to postpone the upgrade until a point where I have the time to dig into what's wrong.