Author Topic: Manjaro Netbook Edition  (Read 121725 times)

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Offline eugen-b

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Re: Manjaro Netbook Edition
« Reply #645 on: 10. April 2016, 13:05:17 »
This project sure looks interesting for a netbook user like me. How does the optimized desktop environment stack against standard xfce4? I mean what's the RAM usage on a fresh install on idle? Thanks for your work, I will definitely try this out as soon as I have the time to play around a bit.
There is very little difference in RAM usage.
Standard Xfce has xfdesktop but no dockbarx-panel-plugin.
Netbook edition has nitrogen and dockbarx-panel-plugin.
But you can change this the way you like. Everything is totally modular.
The Netbook edition has the Atom opimized kernel (which could be installed manually as well, afaik) and palemoon-atom (both i868 only).
But it looks very different, however you can achieve the same look with Xfce (or even with LXDE, LXQt, Openbox, JWM).
« Last Edit: 10. April 2016, 13:09:30 by eugen-b »
MSI Wind Nettop, Intel Atom 230 1.6GHz (64bit), 2GB RAM
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Offline vnvman

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Re: Manjaro Netbook Edition
« Reply #646 on: 10. April 2016, 15:35:33 »
There is very little difference in RAM usage.
Standard Xfce has xfdesktop but no dockbarx-panel-plugin.
Netbook edition has nitrogen and dockbarx-panel-plugin.
But you can change this the way you like. Everything is totally modular.
The Netbook edition has the Atom opimized kernel (which could be installed manually as well, afaik) and palemoon-atom (both i868 only).
But it looks very different, however you can achieve the same look with Xfce (or even with LXDE, LXQt, Openbox, JWM).
I have AMD hardware so I'm not gonna reap the benefits of the kernel. Also for some reason on my machine QupZilla is much faster than Palemoon, which never quite worked right for me. However I really like the way this edition works with smaller screen, having the panel on the bottom of the screen plus the window decorations on top isn't really efficient on a 10" 16:9 device. I think I'll try to play around with the setup a bit and try to achieve a similar result. Great work nonetheless, these small suckers need some love too :)
I would love to see some AMD APU optimized kernels around but obviously the platform isn't as common as Atom.
« Last Edit: 10. April 2016, 15:37:08 by vnvman »

Offline eugen-b

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Re: Manjaro Netbook Edition
« Reply #647 on: 10. April 2016, 15:59:03 »
Also for some reason on my machine QupZilla is much faster than Palemoon, which never quite worked right for me.
Qupzilla didn't render the text properly for me on Xfce last time I tried, but I love running it on LXQt. Its adblock isn't as good as Pale Moon's Adblock Latitude.
However I really like the way this edition works with smaller screen, having the panel on the bottom of the screen plus the window decorations on top isn't really efficient on a 10" 16:9 device.
The regular Xfce window manager xfwm also has the feature to show no decoration when the window is maximized. (It can even be achieved in Openbox with some editing of rc.xml.)
I would love to see some AMD APU optimized kernels around but obviously the platform isn't as common as Atom.
Rob will likely switch to the regular 4.4 kernel on his next release, because the development Atom kernel is dead upstream. :( As for AMD, they are already having problems to provide Xorg 1.18 support with their graphics drivers.
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Offline BS86

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Re: Manjaro Netbook Edition
« Reply #648 on: 10. April 2016, 17:23:00 »
Don't stress over those optimisations, if you have an Atom that supports x86_64 (which earlier Atom CPUs didn't) and have a real reason to want to run 64bit, just run 64bit.

Well, I am more into keeping the optimization then installing an unoptimized x64 ;) I came from Mint 17.3 XFCE 64 bit and the difference is quite huge.
And yes, my Atom N450 supports 64 bit. (Actually, friends and relatives who also have netbooks seem to have only this one or the N455 (DDR3 RAM-support is the only improvement compared to the N450)

This project sure looks interesting for a netbook user like me. How does the optimized desktop environment stack against standard xfce4? I mean what's the RAM usage on a fresh install on idle? Thanks for your work, I will definitely try this out as soon as I have the time to play around a bit.

Well, for me it is 240MB RAM used of 2009 MB - I have added the systemmonitor plugin to the panel and replaced the default app menu with whisker menu.

The boot time is fantastic - grub to X is 6 seconds, grub to XFCE finished loading is 21 seconds - but those are SSD time (Corsair Force GT 120GB).

As for AMD, they are already having problems to provide Xorg 1.18 support with their graphics drivers.

They do not have troubles providing it, they have just stopped developing fglrx in favor of their opensource driver - once that one is finished, fglrx will either be replaced or receive a HUGE update.
« Last Edit: 10. April 2016, 17:27:09 by BS86 »
First experiences with SuSE in early 2000s, really started with Ubuntu 7.04, Unity got me back to Windows, Back on Linux with Linux Mint 15, switched to Kubuntu for Plasma 5, and now using Manjaro - at work using Fedora and CentOS - but still lots of experience to gather

Offline eugen-b

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Re: Manjaro Netbook Edition
« Reply #649 on: 10. April 2016, 18:07:09 »
I was using x86_64 on my Atom 230 machine, but I was too often operating at RAM limit of 2GB. Therefore I installed i686 systems recently and removed the 64bit ones. Maybe a bit less responsiveness, but also a bit more RAM reserves.
You need to consider that the netbook kernel is optimized only for a subset of Atom CPUs. I don't know anymore where the list of these supported models is...
« Last Edit: 10. April 2016, 18:15:20 by eugen-b »
MSI Wind Nettop, Intel Atom 230 1.6GHz (64bit), 2GB RAM
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Offline Rob

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Re: Manjaro Netbook Edition
« Reply #650 on: 11. April 2016, 00:15:05 »
I would love to see some AMD APU optimized kernels around but obviously the platform isn't as common as Atom.
Rob will likely switch to the regular 4.4 kernel on his next release, because the development Atom kernel is dead upstream. :( As for AMD, they are already having problems to provide Xorg 1.18 support with their graphics drivers.
Actually no, my kernel config hasn't been based on that of the old kernel-netbook project for a long time, i make it myself based on the standard Manjaro config. Remember CPU-architecture-specific optimisation is an in-kernel optional feature, maintained by the kernel devs.
https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/arch/x86/Kconfig.cpu#L273
I don't need an upstream Atom kernel project to maintain my Atom kernel. ;) ...though i will say that it's always a work in progress, there's no doubt more kernel config changes i could do to make it better.

I may take the Atom kernel to a series newer than 3.14 at some stage, but every time i test this i see no benefits.

@vnvman:
...and actually yes, you may well see a kernel with AMD optimisations for the Jaguar(+Puma) architecture in the 64bit Netbook edition soon, because I'm getting one of these which has an AMD E1 APU, so i can test everything myself with the real hardware, and i'll be wanting to run Google's(/Samsumg's/Motorola's/nVidia's) Interactive CPU frequency scaling governor on it too, so i'll be maintaining a kernel for myself - may as well share it. :)
Should note though, i don't use AMD non-free drivers, i likely won't put out an fglrx kernel module for it.

You need to consider that the netbook kernel is optimized only for a subset of Atom CPUs. I don't know anymore where the list of these supported models is...
Really? Some CPU's branded "Atom" don't work with kernels using MATOM config?

Offline eugen-b

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Re: Manjaro Netbook Edition
« Reply #651 on: 11. April 2016, 00:24:21 »
I remembered where I got the info: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Kernels#AUR_packages
Quote
kernel-netbookAUR[broken link: archived in aur-mirror]
    Static kernel for netbooks with Intel Atom N270/N280/N450/N550 such as the Eee PC with the add-on of external firmware (broadcom-wlAUR) and patchset (BFS + TuxOnIce + BFQ optional) - Only Intel GPU
Thanks for all the other info, Rob!
« Last Edit: 11. April 2016, 00:26:44 by eugen-b »
MSI Wind Nettop, Intel Atom 230 1.6GHz (64bit), 2GB RAM
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http://manjaro.github.io/donate/

Offline vnvman

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Re: Manjaro Netbook Edition
« Reply #652 on: 11. April 2016, 08:41:02 »
Quote from: Rob
@vnvman:
...and actually yes, you may well see a kernel with AMD optimisations for the Jaguar(+Puma) architecture in the 64bit Netbook edition soon, because I'm getting one of these which has an AMD E1 APU, so i can test everything myself with the real hardware, and i'll be wanting to run Google's(/Samsumg's/Motorola's/nVidia's) Interactive CPU frequency scaling governor on it too, so i'll be maintaining a kernel for myself - may as well share it. :)
That's some awesome news! I'll be more than willing to test that out if you're gonna share it. Keep up the great work!

Offline eugen-b

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Re: Manjaro Netbook Edition
« Reply #653 on: 12. April 2016, 15:11:17 »
@Rob, so is your netbook kernel optimization limited to Intel Atom N270/N280/N450/N550 models or not?
MSI Wind Nettop, Intel Atom 230 1.6GHz (64bit), 2GB RAM
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Offline Rob

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Re: Manjaro Netbook Edition
« Reply #654 on: 12. April 2016, 15:41:25 »
@Rob, so is your netbook kernel optimization limited to Intel Atom N270/N280/N450/N550 models or not?

It's limited to whatever compiling with  CONFIG_MATOM=y  limits it to.

The documentation just says "Intel Atom platform"
http://cateee.net/lkddb/web-lkddb/MATOM.html

Offline eugen-b

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Re: Manjaro Netbook Edition
« Reply #655 on: 15. April 2016, 22:25:13 »
Well, I've installed your netbook kernel and it works with Atom 230 which is 64bit by design.
Code: [Select]
System:    Host: manjaro Kernel: 3.14.65-1-MANJARO-netbook i686 (32 bit gcc: 5.1.0)
           Desktop: LXDE (Openbox 3.6.1) dm: lxdm
           Distro: ManjaroLinux 16.03 Capella
CPU:       Single core Intel Atom 230 (-HT-) cache: 512 KB
           flags: (lm nx pae sse sse2 sse3 ssse3) bmips: 3193
           clock speeds: max: 1596 MHz 1: 1596 MHz 2: 1596 MHz
Graphics:  Card: Intel 82945G/GZ Integrated Graphics Controller
           bus-ID: 00:02.0 chip-ID: 8086:2772
           Display Server: X.Org 1.17.4 driver: intel
           Resolution: 1366x768@59.79hz
           GLX Renderer: Mesa DRI Intel 945G x86/MMX/SSE2
           GLX Version: 2.1 Mesa 11.1.2 Direct Rendering: Yes
Info:      Processes: 121 Uptime: 1 min Memory: 126.0/2011.5MB
           Init: systemd v: 229 Gcc sys: 5.3.0
           Client: Shell (bash 4.3.421 running in lxterminal) inxi: 2.2.36
hardinfo benchmarks show nothing special with this kernel and the overall desktop experience is just the same as with other kernels. There is only one real problem, it doesn't have overlayfs support which I would like to have for a better profile-sync-daemon performance. I also don't know how much worse - if at all - it is with btrfs compared to the late series.
« Last Edit: 15. April 2016, 22:39:13 by eugen-b »
MSI Wind Nettop, Intel Atom 230 1.6GHz (64bit), 2GB RAM
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Offline Rob

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Re: Manjaro Netbook Edition
« Reply #656 on: 16. April 2016, 02:07:06 »
FYI the netbook kernel uses the conservative CPU frequency governor by default. If your system is not on battery you'll want to switch to ondemand.
If you're getting the same desktop experience from a kernel that defaults to conservative as with ones that default to ondemand, well that's quite good then. :P

Offline eugen-b

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Re: Manjaro Netbook Edition
« Reply #657 on: 16. April 2016, 11:53:08 »
Well, Atom 230 has only one frequency, so it will behave the same with any cpufreq governor.
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Offline Rob

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Re: Manjaro Netbook Edition
« Reply #658 on: 16. April 2016, 11:56:57 »
Well, Atom 230 has only one frequency, so it will behave the same with any cpufreq governor.

Whoops, i forgot the earlier convo.

I got too many discussions going on about too many kernels with too many people at the minute. :-[


But yeah, don't expect too much from architecture-specific kernel builds, it alone doesn't have much impact.

The netbook kernel used to have BFS, but doesn't currently (and may or may not again), so it's a bit less interesting now i guess.
« Last Edit: 16. April 2016, 11:59:54 by Rob »